What about the employers who hire these people and get away with cheap labor and break the law. They avoid paying minimum wage, payroll taxes, worker's compensation insurance, overtime and other legally mandated employee benefits, these Illegal Employers profit at the expense of taxpayers and honest Business owners. I think this is the main reason most Republican's in the senate went against President Bush on this Bill. This is called taking care of your "BASE" and the Republicans do this better than anyone.
Andrew Speaker was infected with tuberculosis and went through Czech airlines to Montreal to the Canadian border with a passport that had been flagged by CDC and should have been detained and isolated. How could this man come back to America and get pass a check point with a flagged passport with ease?
How can we count on a computer and a border patrol to process 12 million people with temporary work visa's, when we cannot control one man who's passport has been flagged?
How many millions are lost each year by this government paying for health, education and social programs for illegal's?
How much of the money made is sent back south and not used to help pay taxes?
I'm not a fan of former President Ronald Reagan who said; “The simple truth is that we've lost control of our own borders, and no nation can do that and survive. We ignore America's lost sovereignty at our peril.” During these times with terrorist and President Bush out of control, what Reagan said make's sense now.
Should there be an immigration bill or should we try to enforce the laws that are in place now?
What say you?
Thursday, June 14, 2007
What About The Immigration Bill?
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30 comments:
Secure the border and re-evaluate the situation in five years. Period.
Bush is in a really awkward position in this whole immigration issue. A lot of conservatives want to keep "them" out, but the largest part of the Republican base is Big Business and they want all this cheap labor.
Most of the blame goes to the employers who hire illegals. If every employer screened for illegal aliens, they wouldn't have any incentive to come here.
I concur j. marquis, secure the borders and re-evaluate later.
Great point tom harper, "If every employer screened for illegal aliens, they wouldn't have any incentive to come here."
They'll pass the bill, bush'll be happy then it'll go to hell when employers revolt against losing their cheap labor. When business starts yelling, government will back off, as usual. Bush doesn't care what happens AFTER, he's just interested in getting it passed on his watch since it'd supposedly be a feather in his barren nest.This is all a "been there, done that" scenario.
Yeah, the illegals have to register, pay fines, have background checks yada yada... So the honest ones will do it and go through the angst, but the criminal element thats here, yeah, they'll register, sure they will.So the underground illegal network will go on as usual.
And the border, there'll be a big hoopla when "the securing of the border" starts, then they'll decide they'd need an agent every 10 feet to catch these people coming over and that'll go the way it always has.
Since I live in Arizona, or little Mexico, I give it one big yawn.I've seen their "employer penalties" come and go, I've seen enforcement stomped on because it's "profiling" etc etc.
So what will change? Big start, then nothing. Like anything the government does
I agree Bob, just a waste of time and money, when all they need to do is enforce the laws we already have.
The only overhaul needed is to hire enough people to get the job done.
This is off topic: I was just looking back at your earlier posts, and I'd forgotten that you tagged me on your May 21st post. I left a comment thanking you for the honor, but I didn't realize I needed to do a post of my own, tagging 5 other bloggers. I left the following day for a 2-1/2 week vacation so I never saw your followup comment where you said I needed to do my own post where I tagged 5 bloggers (I just now saw it). Sorry about that; didn't mean to drop the ball.
Who Hijacked Our Country
Let's Talk, well you already know most of my thoughts on this subject, but I would say that in an ideal world we would simply enforce our current laws, but since I don't believe that will happen, I favor new legislation that may push our government into actually implementing some different strategies to, finally, address the problem
Leo, I don't think we are going to push this government into carrying out any different tactics. I think this will just make things worse.
I like what Bob said, "So what will change? Big start, then nothing."
No problem on the tagg Tom, just happy to know that you enjoyed your vacation time and made it back sake!
If they would go after the employers who hire illegals it would dry a lot of it up.
Isn't that already in the law?
Yes it is Larry, that's why I say, let's enforce the Law's already in place and as j. marquis said re-evaluate it after a few years.
Yep, it's the employers who continue to hire the illegals. That's the problem boys! ;)
You are so right Suzie-Q.
Please tell me what you think 12 million undocumented workers are going to do when they cannot feed themselves and their families because they cannot work.
You had better prepare yourself for a mass wave of crime created by not the starving individuals, but by corporate government, it's past policies and simplistic bumper sticker solutions.
You can't simply all of a sudden enforce the laws that have been ignored for a decade (I know from personal experience they were being enforced in 97) and seal the border and expect 12 million human beings to simply disappear, or teleport across a "secured" border.
Additionally, that border will never be "secure", no matter how much money you throw at it, so what you really propose when you say secure the boarder is militarizing it.
This is not a problem to be solved with simple nationalistic actions.
This is a problem that America can no longer afford.
There are laws that can be enforced, such as going after the employer.
"Additionally, that border will never be "secure", no matter how much money you throw at it, so what you really propose when you say secure the boarder is militarizing it."
This is what I said; "How can we count on a computer and a border patrol to process 12 million people with temporary work visa's, when we cannot control one man who's passport has been flagged?"
I just posted Have It Your Way, But Not In Pay At Burger King and how BK and the owners of farming fields are getting rich on immigrants.
It comes down to the fact that the Riches man in the world next year will not be from America.
He will come from Mexico... what is he doing to help the people there.
What are the rich doing period in Mexico to help the people. America has put it's hand on that country for cheap labor in and outside of that country.
Right now there's no bill that America can pass that will make a change here. We MUST start to enforce the laws that we have now and that's just a fact.
You have to provide a way for the people that are already here, to work here or you'll be pouring blood into the streets.
Current laws don't cover that.
Wait a minute 1138, this is America, not Mexico.
From what I understand Mexico is a country with over 100 million people. The riches man in the world and some of the billionaires live there.
Why is it that Mexican politicians continue to press the United States to improve the lives of illegal immigrants, when they are failing to make urgently needed reforms that could help their countrymen stay home.
America can't continue to do this for Mexico, there's too much at stake and our borders are too weak to continue this with terrorist on the rampage.
Mexico should be trying to resolve its own problems yet they are conveniently useing the United States as their scapegoat.
Let's Talk,
You're talking two different issues.
What Mexican politicians want doesn't matter to me one bit.
What exists are 12 million people inside our borders, that are not simply going to hop on a bus and go back to Mexico, especially without the money to do so.
So how are we going to handle that?
How much money are we going to spend to send each and every one of them back even if they were to turn themselves in at the closest national guard armory of federal courthouse?
Do the math, I have but do it yourself even at the most optimistic number it's about $2,000 per person to send each one back to Mexico not including housing, payment of federal employees or medical care while they are in custody.
Then there's the matter of the children among them that were born here. I can't accept taking the right to be here away from any American citizen and those children are by our laws Americans.
We went down this road once before in the 50's and left a large number of American citizens people without a country.
There's a reality to this that doesn't allow for the simple enforcement of existing laws without addressing the problems that go with it.
Terrorism from Mexico will increase as a problem, not decrease if we simply waste money increasing the population of the country by 10 percent even if we were still a rich nation and could address the internal Mexican problems at the same time.
We cannot do it all, and we cannot do it all at once so we do not have a lot of choice but to compromise with a bad situation to achieve the best outcome and not knee jerk our way into a worse one.
"What Mexican politicians want doesn't matter to me one bit."
That is part of the problem, but we prefer to make those who disagree with the issue the scapegoat.
"What exists are 12 million people inside our borders, that are not simply going to hop on a bus and go back to Mexico, especially without the money to do so."
I do not support any exist of 12 million people, that is too much to put on anyone. I do think the laws that we already have should be enforced period.
doing the math put's more burden on Americans when you look at what we pay all ready for the social programs, when you look at the money made here being sent back to Mexico, when you look at Mexican government not helping but being the problem.
"Terrorism from Mexico will increase as a problem, not decrease if we simply waste money increasing the population of the country by 10 percent even if we were still a rich nation and could address the internal Mexican problems at the same time."
To continue the path forward without change is doom... we must make a change, there is too many if's and what if's that do nothing to help America and the people with terrorist, with money already spent, and the waste already felt.
"We cannot do it all, and we cannot do it all at once so we do not have a lot of choice but to compromise with a bad situation to achieve the best outcome and not knee jerk our way into a worse one."
All we have been doing is paying money and you might want to do the math and see the yearly increase in said money; for health, education, food, etc.
No, America cannot do it all and Mexico should do its part for it's people not just their rich.
All we have done is COMPROMISE, COMPROMISE and COMPROMISE, what else is left to do?
I never want to see anyone done wrong for any reason. I do not think sending 12 million people on a bus across a border is the right thing to do.
I think that America must enforce the laws that we have... what are you saying, that it's ok for others to continue breaking said laws?
America for its Good or Bad is a country of different people from different place's, so that is not the problem, the problem is we must get control of this country by enforcing the rules we have here for the good of America.
What do you advocate, letting all those who are here to just become citizens, do you feel the same for the Haiti who are turned back out to sea when caught coming here.
There are laws fair or not that must be enforced.
So do we start rounding them up or simply shoot them on site?
I don't see you proposing an answer.
I don't see you finding the Twenty Four Billion dollars needed just to transport them across a border never mind feeding, locating, etc. the real number gets closer to trillions of dollars when you find out Mexico won't take them back in a mass deportation.
I don't see a shred of recognition that you are going to violate due process, and as a result send American citizens to Mexico stripping them of citizenship.
Or that it violates my rights because there is no Constitutional requirement that I have to constantly produce evidence of my right to live and work here and failing to do so will cost me my liberty.
You seem to say, don't employ them and they will go away.
But Let's Talk, they won't.
There's no good answer to this, but any answer that makes us less American is no answer that we should repeat. There must be a system that will address the problems created by the failures of the past and present and address the future.
This Bill is not that answer (for details that get ignored by the media and spin miesters) and ignoring people to death isn't either.
I'm not on Bush's side on this, he's as wrong as can be and isn't fit to wash the feet of these economic refugee's - BUT - something other that what has been done must be done.
The money sent home dosen't matter - it's earned.
You don't complain when I make an investment with an international fund, or send $5 to feed people in Darfur.
The Taxes paid are paid unless there are EMPLOYERS breaking the law on taxes.
Services? Let's get some numbers that aren't top loaded with bias and I'll talk about those numbers, but so far I haven't seen numbers that really evaluate the theft from all workers by employers that don't pay legitimate wages, and then pass that on as lower cost. Haven't seen it, and won't because it's the real reason these folks get hired.
But I'll tell you what, the education level needed to work at chicken processing plants, beef processing plants, roofing, masonry etc. is not that high and we have lots of people that can and will do the work and that's not why the illegals are doing the jobds the reason is that we have a very very sick economy that were it as healthy as it should be would have lots of room for the millions that come here.
But now in a bad economy we are left fighting for scraps and that always seems to involve scapegoats, this time the "Mexicans" (and they all are not).
Why do you bring Hatians into the issue? Are there a reported 12 million Hatians anyone is talking about rounding up? Or the million plus Canadians that are here in violation of immigration law?
Side issues.
The question at hand is, who has the right to be in America and what is the way to handle them once you have determined that they don't belong here.
Also how to determine that they don't belong here. Doing so without violating everyone else's rights to live, travel and work as free people unharassed as provided for in the Constitution.
What to do when you actually lack the resources to handle a group as large as has been reported?
Controlling the border is a good idea, militarizing the border between two democratic (yes flawed) nations that are not at war is not a good idea - unless you want war.
Mexico would lose any such war, but in winning we would lose worse.
Tom Harper an others are wrong in blaming the employers, that is unless they are hones enough to include themselves for personally profiting from the product of those employers, because we do.
There must be an answer, but that answer won't include Mexicans walking home (to possibly face being shot by Mexico when the numbers get too large. Nor is there any human/humane to round them up an put them in cattle cars bound for detention camps and then Mexico.
Real answers have to include giving these people a reason to cooperate, that reason won't be jail or deportation - so what would you propose.
And please don't say no work again, if anything that threat will simply cause them to have to work for less doing things that are less and less legal and putting them as human beings more and more at risk of extreme exploitation in the land of the free and the home of the brave.
As an American and a Veteran, I'm ashamed of the entire situation.
I will take this step by step 1138.
"So do we start rounding them up or simply shoot them on site?
I don't see you proposing an answer."
I don't have an answer, but something must be done that is right... we cannot continue to support people that come here illegally. I don't support rounding anyone up for any reason or shooting anyone, that is crazy and wrong.
"I don't see you finding the Twenty Four Billion dollars needed just to transport them across a border never mind feeding, locating, etc. the real number gets closer to trillions of dollars when you find out Mexico won't take them back in a mass deportation."
I have not said that we should send anyone back, where that comes from, I don't know.
How do you know that Mexico want take back its own people?
That's one of the problems, we are jumping the gun, saying Mexico will or will not do.
There is a lot of money being spent here in the States and with the way our President has been spending on the war, we are left with a problem when it comes to spending more on health, education etc... why want Mexico help?
There is no way we could ever send children who were born here to Mexico, and there's no way we are going to send Mexicans back by the millions, well at least I hope we are not.
"You seem to say, don't employ them and they will go away."
Never once have I said, don't employ them. I think any man or woman have the right to work if they want too.
I am saying that employer must be held accountable for hiring, underpaying and misusing these people.
"This Bill is not that answer (for details that get ignored by the media and spin miesters) and ignoring people to death isn't either."
I have not said that I agree with this bill. I've simply said that we should enforce the laws we already have and secure our borders, both north and south.
"The money sent home doesn't matter - it's earned.
You don't complain when I make an investment with an international fund, or send $5 to feed people in Darfur."
If that money is not taxed then it's wrong... We forget that America is built on a system be it right or wrong and everyone here must follow the law and be subject to taxes on any amount of money made.
I don't see anything wrong with anyone sending money to Mexico to help their family, I am saying its wrong when that money might not have been taxed.
I don't like to pay taxes and I think its unfair when the property that I rent out has to be taxed every year, even though I'm renting to people who are on Section 8, I'm helping them in a way, but I must pay taxes on what I do to earn money here before I seen any to Darfur or any other place.
Haitians was brought into the issue to show that other people are treated worse and not even allowed to slip in illegally.
The point is, anyone who comes here legally has the right to be here, if you are here illegally then you have violated our laws, there's no way around that.
We on the other hand treat Cuban's much differently, but that's another story.
What it comes down to is we are in a hard place currently in America, there's a lot of people here illegally and a lot of the money made are sent from here untaxed because employers are illegally under paying without reporting and illegals are sending those untaxed dollars away.
Say what you will but between that unpaid tax dollar, the dollars spent on those needing social programs is more than what you think.
America cant keep this up during these types of times.
I don't know what would be the right thing to do, I only feel that we must start with the laws that we already have and secure our borders. These are dangerous times and a lot of money is being spent on a made up war, Home land security,contractors in Iraq.
We borrow a lot of money from China, Japan and Saudi Arabia to help pay for this war.
We are not what we were financially back in the 90's when Clinton was President. Bush has spent and borrowed this country into the ground.
To say that we must continue this same course with Mexico is not helping America.
After visiting this frontier, Gabriela RodrÃguez, the UN Human Rights Commissioner’s special rapporteur on migrants’ rights said: "Mexico is one of the countries where illegal immigrants are highly vulnerable to human rights violations and become victims of degrading sexual exploitation and slavery-like practices, and are denied access to education and healthcare."
How does Mexico view it's immigrants?
Thanks for the information floyd.
"I am saying that employer must be held accountable for hiring, underpaying and misusing these people."
On that we agree, but I believe you were calling for enforcement of existing laws.
There has to be a path made that leads us to somewhere better than where we are now.
Just enforcing existing law won;t do it.
This President has failed to a- defend the border b- exercise his duty in foreign affairs with Mexico c-Obey the Constitution in providing for the General Welfare
The Democratic and Republican Congress' have failed as well in that they have approved trade deals with Mexico the harmed both the people of Mexico and the people of the United States.
I get passionate when America starts attacking our Mexican relatives becasue if you examine the history of the Mexican peoples and the American peoples they are intertwined throughout our history.
The Mexican, American and Canadian nations of North America are a unique group of countries with a history of exceptionally open borders with free movement across those borders. Historically the citizens of Mexico have helped this country in our times of need and were critical to the war effort in World War II.
We can do better than the common proposals made that include expulsion and the building of fences and walls between free nations, I believe that in my heart. I didn't work under the deadly eye of chemical and biological missiles in Germany opposing a wall that was created to stop free movement to let terrorists and totalitarians put one on the boarder of my own country a Republican member of Congress from Iowa yesterday proudly displayed his own design for a concrete wall to be erected the entire distance of the U.S. Mexican border.
I don't oppose monitoring and enforcing our borders, but the issues caused by actually creating a physical barrier are more that I can accept. Damage to our core values and our image, damage to the environment and damage for us as FREE Americans to cross that border if we with.
Securing that border works both ways, and that's when it becomes the same as the border between east and west Berlin or the monstrous abomination to human rights that was the border fence between east and west Germany.
Simply enforcing the laws on the books won't help, it will in fact if done alone hurt.
Creating a guest worker program does not help, it institutionalizes the problem I've personally seen the harm it does to the fabric of a nation in France, and Germany AND here under H1b.
If we are not going to mass deport, if we are going to allow these people to stay and work - and enforce the employment laws in the future then we are left with only two choices, either provide these people with guest worker status or a path to citizenship. Both require that Congress and the President agree to do something beyond enforcement of existing laws.
When you eat today you will east something that came from these hard working essentially honest people, and that will be from the 50% of the food we eat that is not IMPORTED. These people deserve that same pay we would give one of our own and we should be making the same requirements of those nations we import food from.
We have literally sold our values off to the lowest bidder and then we sit back and shame Congress for being every bit as corrupt as we are, by virtue of the fact that we ignore and accept it.
It requires a change in the law and enforcement.
Oh, and how Mexico treats it's illegals is not justification one way or the other for how we treat the people that flee Mexico for America.
Criticize Mexico for it, but we are the ones responsible for how we treat people here, not Mexico.
"am saying its wrong when that money might not have been taxed."
I've seen no evidence that the money is not taxed. I don't know where you get the idea that it isn't.
Employers are supposed to be taking taxes, the IRS is supposed to be doing enforcement.
If my employers fail to take taxes and report to the IRS as required by law do you blame me, or do you blame the I.R.S. and the employer?
I might not even be aware that it isn't being done.
You say enforce current laws as they are... all I'm saying is that we NEED an immigration law change to address the problem we have, we cannot let things go on as they have and we cannot pretend that the laws on the books written to address the situation as it was then, are able to address the situation as it is now.
A lot of that money that is paid to people are not taxed. In the construction business, the problem is huge. You have some contractors paying out of pocket and cheating a lot of employees.
I had my basement wired and contracted with one person; he in turn came in with six (6), other people and once the job was completed, cash and a work order was exchanged on my end and money were split on his end with no record or regard to taxes.
If we came close to enforcing half the laws correctly, a lot of the problems and money would be solved.
We cant continue to half do a job when there are people trying to get here to harm any and everyone they can.
"A lot of that money that is paid to people are not taxed."
And a lot of that goes to people other than illegals.
I'm not saying attackers won't come across that border, but take a look how they've come here so far.
Have we secured those means, which are far smaller and simpler than fixing the border?
The implication (and I'm not saying you're making it) is the Mexicans themselves are terrorists or allied with terrorists, without evidence.
We've never had a prolem with Mexicans being terrorist or anything close to that... about the only thing we have is the drug problem.
The simple truth is Mexico and America has to do something about this problem... our economy, that Bush and the Republicans say are doing just great, is not as they say.
We are in for a downward fall and there's just so much our economy can hold.
Yep we've been headed down for quite some time. Stemming Mexico alone won't fix that downtrend.
No, 1138 a lot more is needed.
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